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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 16, 2008 21:39:16 GMT -5
Hi folks.
I have a 354 with a Koyker loader. Right now the loader is just plumbed inline with the quick-connects, but I want to add a power beyond port and then rear remote hydraulics.
For a power beyond, I need a third connection, to the hydraulic return, and I'm trying to figure out how to tap into that.
As far as I can tell, there are two connections to the hydraulic tank on my tractor.
One is the hydraulic return used by the power steering. This consists of a hard pipe from the priority valve to the tank, and a hose from the steering valve to the priority valve. I can think of five ways to tap into that, but each has problems:
1. At the priority valve. This would be my first choice. The problem is I can't figure out what kind of fitting it is. The hose terminates in a female threaded connector, and the valve has a male connector with an o-ring face seal. The thread is slightly smaller than a 1/2" fitting (which has a nominal size of 13/16") so I suspect it's a metric fitting of 20mm. I have looked all over the internet and can't find anything matching this description.
2. At the tank. This is a banjo fitting, with essentially zero clearance on all sides. Any ideas on how to tap in there?
3. At the diverter valve. This is a strange fitting. There's a banjo fitting, but instead of a bolt holding it in there's the other end of the hose from the steering valve screwed onto a stud. There's no clearance as the mounting bracket for the FEL comes right up against this fitting.
4. Cut the hose and put in a barbed fitting. This SHOULD be no problem -- there should be negligible pressure in the return hose. The hose looks like a 1/2" hose, but I suspect it's a metric size because of the fittings on the ends, so I hope a 1/2" barb would work.. I'm a little reluctant to cut this hose as none of the online sources of parts stock it and I would be really out of luck if I messed it up.
5. Cut the hard pipe and put in a compression fitting. Basically the same issue as #4. An additional complication is that I'm pretty sure this is a metric size pipe, and I'd have to find a metric sized compression fitting.
The other entrance to the tank is the vent. This is a hard pipe with a banjo fitting. There is no clearance around the banjo fitting. Again, this pipe does not seem to be available, so if I cut it and mess it up, I''m in a fix -- although it is less crucial.
So I'm fishing for ideas. Does anyone have any idea where I can get a metric o-ring face seal fitting -- or even what I should be looking for? Is there a way of tee-ing into a banjo fitting? Am I going to be OK if I cut into one of the pipes?
Any other thoughts? Is there something I'm missing? Thanks.
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Post by Ronmar on Jul 16, 2008 23:47:01 GMT -5
They are metric "O" ring face seal as you suspect, and good luck finding any, as they just are not readilly available here in the states, at least that I have been able to find.
For my PB addition to my Prince loader valve on my 284, I was planning on tapping into the return from the power steering just like you described in #4. On my 284, at the end of the hard line between resovoir and steering valve, there is a short jumper hose. Instead of messing with trying to match the chinese fittings, I was going to just cut the line in the middle and put in a hose barb "T" fitting for the return line from the loader valve. It is a low pressure return, so it only needs to be plummed like a garden hose as there will be no serious pressure on it... I think the chances for failure are pretty low with this approach. Since it is low pressure, even the "T" is not going to be a real crucial fit, that a good hose clamp won't seal.
I have the PB sleeve for my valve which has been setting here in front of me on my computer desk for a few months now. I just recently rounded up the hose and elbow fitting, so I just need to get a "T" and get off my ass and do the job:)
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GuglioLS
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Post by GuglioLS on Jul 17, 2008 23:07:10 GMT -5
4. Cut the hose and put in a barbed fitting. This SHOULD be no problem -- there should be negligible pressure in the return hose. The hose looks like a 1/2" hose, but I suspect it's a metric size because of the fittings on the ends, so I hope a 1/2" barb would work.. I'm a little reluctant to cut this hose as none of the online sources of parts stock it and I would be really out of luck if I messed it up.Quicksand.... On my 354 the "return to TPH tank" is also the input to the TPH lift valve so there can be considerable back pressure when the TPH is lifted. As far as I know ALL fluid is returned into the TPH box which goes to that TPH valve. It can be used as a return to tank just so long as all the hoses and fittings are rated for high pressure. I used the "return to tank" for all my return lines. I am certain the Hydraulics on our 354's are not the same, my tractor is a 2005 and many changes were made to the TPH box and the plumbing after that year. Another option for you to consider for a non pressurized return to tank is to use the drain port / plug. Remove the drain plug then install a short metric nipple to a metric "T" with one end of the "T" plugged for the new drain. Got any pictures of the drain plug? That may help. Here is a pic of the return line on my 354, it is center and all the way left on the photo. There used to be a hard line with banjo fitting, I took all that off, and installed a metric to American pipe adapter. You might be able to find the metric fittings from Discount hydraulic hose. www.discounthydraulichose.com/DIN_Metric_Fittings_s/208.htmLarry
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GuglioLS
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Post by GuglioLS on Jul 17, 2008 23:17:10 GMT -5
Check out these male metric thread to female American pipe adapters. PLEASE CLICK HERE I bet you will find one that fits the drain plug on the TPH box. Or take off one of the banjo bolts and hard lines then convert the banjo to a fitting then ditch the hard line for a standard American 3/8" or 1/2" hose. You can do it, just got to be creative. Larry
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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 18, 2008 23:24:17 GMT -5
Larry -- Thanks for your help. I've been bashing this one around for a while.
I spent some time today staring at my tractor. I had pretty much convinced myself that the thing to do was to replace the hard line on the vent with a metric fitting and a hose, and I was checking the clearance. That was when I noticed that the vent went into the differential, not the hydaulic tank! So disregard everything I said in my first post about the vent!
As for a drain, I couldn't find one. The only thing that looks like Larry's picture is the return to pump, on the other side of the tank on my tractor. It's a banjo fitting that goes into a four-bolt flange. I don't want to tap into that line as my understanding is there's a risk of the fluid overheating if it doesn't have a chance to mix with the tank fluid and cool off.
So it looks like my options are to either drill a new hole in the tank, or use the power steering return. At the tank end of the power steering line, there might be clearance to add another fitting, but the draft control link might be in the way. I have no idea how the draft control works on my tractor, but I think I can figure out its range of motion.
Another intriguing possibility is the "half-remote." Does anyone know what it is connected to when it is in the off position? Does it go to the tank, or is it just shut off? If it goes to the tank, I could see sacrificing it to dedicate it to a return port. Anyone know?
Thanks again.
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ronj
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Post by ronj on Jul 19, 2008 5:12:43 GMT -5
Quicksand, Here is a picture of the various hydraulic hoses on my 284. Is your setup anything similar? Or perhaps this will help with the communication on this thread. RonJ
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GuglioLS
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Post by GuglioLS on Jul 19, 2008 10:02:24 GMT -5
As for a drain, I couldn't find oneI would think there has to be a drain plug or drain line somewhere. On mine it's a hard line tube sticking out the back with a plug at the end of the hard line tube. The hard line drain tube is connected to the TPH lift box by a banjo fitting. Pictures are what we need to help figure it out or to give better advice. Can you post pictures? Using the half remote output for a return is not an option as it comes from an internal valve that is normally shut off. If you open the half remote valve - you loose normal TPH function. Here is a better view of my modified return plumbing. In this picture look close between the top link and the RIGHT tilt cylinder, see that zinc plated tube with the plug? - that is the TPH sump drain. Larry
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Jul 19, 2008 10:43:42 GMT -5
Not sure if this picture of Loretta's 284 wil help or not? Shown is where her drain plug is ... right there near the other bolts that hold on the 3pt connection on the tractor. Also on her 284 there was a plug on the left side (looking from the rear of the tractor) that I used as a return to sump. I put a "T" there to receive several return hoses from various valves on her tractor which have power beyond. Drilling and tapping for another return to sump is a good idea too. When you have power beyond such as on your Koyker loader valve, use that to feed the next valve in line. Then that valve will need an separate return to sump as you already know. The Chinese valves don't do this. They use the return line (under pressure) to feed the next valve in line. This is not universally accepted as good hydraulics practice, but it does work. The problem is that it places back pressure on the "O" rings in the other valves which cause premature failures since they now feel the pressure in a direction not intended for use. Rob-
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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 19, 2008 22:53:43 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the pictures. In summary ... none of them look anything like my tractor!
It's nighttime now, but I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow to advance the conversation.
Rob's picture of the drain plug is the most promising. I went around looking for unmatched bolts that might be drains, but that spot is hidden on my tractor. I have draft control, so the piece that the top link attaches to is separate from the lift box. It's also a piece that moves, so I have to be careful with what I put behind it.
Where Rob's picture says "plug here" I have a hard pipe that returns to the hydraulic pump. I think if I needed to drain the hydraulic fluid I would just loosen that banjo bolt.
Where Larry has a drain I have the return from the power steering coming in. It's a banjo fitting. Right next to it is a connecting rod that connects the bracket on the 3-point hitch that holds the top link to the lift control, for draft control. Because of this connecting rod there's not really any room to add a fitting there.
Ron -- your pictures really help with explaining. The line I'm concerned with is the one labeled "Z" in your pictures. If I had your setup I'd be done already! On my tractor, tthe two parts don't tee near the power steering valve, instead they join at the diverter valve. There is a hose from the power steering valve to the diverter valve, and a hard line from the diverter valve to the tank.
At the diverter valve, they've done a weird thing to join them. The hard line has a banjo fitting, the hose has a 90-degree female end, and there must be some kind of a banjo stud inside. The female hose end is what holds the banjo fitting in place. This might be a good place to tap in -- but the mounting bracket for the front end loader goes right up against the female hose. In order to loosen the hose, I'd have to remove the FEL and its mounting brackets. A bigger job than I'm up for right now.
So a drain bolt on the rear of the lift box is looking pretty good. Drilling a hole into the lift box is looking better too.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts, I'll keep you posted.
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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 20, 2008 9:13:49 GMT -5
I did a quick check. No drain bolt on the rear of the lift box. Oh well.
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Post by Ronmar on Jul 20, 2008 11:41:35 GMT -5
That line RonJ showed as "Z" is the one I am going to put a "T" into for my FEL valve return line. Because of space issues from the fuel tank mount bracket on the right side, I was planning on tapping the line on the left side of the tractor right where it exits the steering valve.
As for your fitting at the diverter, it sounds as if they used a cross drilled metric nipple. But with the loader tower right up against it, that does sound difficult to work on. How much slack is there at the other end of the hose where it comes out of the stering pump?
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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 20, 2008 20:59:08 GMT -5
OK, I went out today and took some pictures. Here we go: www.nickkeenan.com/pictures/tractor/P7180017.JPGThis is the diverter valve. Note the hard pipe and the hose stacked together, center of picture. The hose fitting is somehow used in place of a banjo bolt. The hard pipe goes to the tank, and the hose goes to the steering valve. The black bar at the bottom of the picture is the mount for the FEL; note that it is impossible to open this fitting without removing the mount. www.nickkeenan.com/pictures/tractor/P7180019.JPGThis is the other end of the hose in the last picture. Note that the female fitting is different from the other end. The hose screws into a male-to-male adapter that screws into the steering valve. The end that attaches to the hose is an o-ring face-seal fitting. I suppose for the sake of completeness I should check what the other end of that fitting is. This area has good access if I could figure out a way to match the fittings. www.nickkeenan.com/pictures/tractor/P7180021.JPGThis is where the hard line in the first picture goes into the tank. (Right side of the tank, viewed from the rear). The black bar with the slight bend that goes along the banjo is the linkage for the draft control. Note that there is no room here to add anything. www.nickkeenan.com/pictures/tractor/P7180022.JPGThis is the left side of the tank, viewed from the rear. The hard pipe with the banjo fitting is the return to the hydraulic pump. Note that there is a flat spot above the bend in the pipe that might be a good spot to drill and tap a new hole. For the sake of completeness, I took off the seat mounting bolts today to see if they were drilled through, but they're not.
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Post by quicksandfarmer on Jul 20, 2008 21:16:03 GMT -5
A couple of quick thoughts:
Tomorrow I'll check the other end of the fitting on the steering valve. If that doesn't pan out, I'm leaning toward plumbing the remotes as straight open center, without using the power beyond. It's a simple hook-up, just snap into the quick-connects. I figure the worst that can happen is a blow a seal on the outlet side of my valve, which is a pretty simple repair compared to the options I see for implementing power beyond right now.
Also, for completeness I spent some time fooling with the half remote to see if I could figure out how it works. I hooked up a hose to the half remote and operated the lift lever with the engine running. Let's just say I now know how to drain the hydraulics quickly! I can't seem to figure out any way to turn the valve off. There is a knob under the seat, and I get fluid from the hose when the handle is lifted regardless of how that is set. Anyone know of a way to turn it off? Or do I have to have something attached that offers some resistance?
Thanks.
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Post by tuffytractor on Jul 20, 2008 22:36:48 GMT -5
Quicksand, It appears you and I have very similar set ups. I also was unable to find a good drain site, so I pulled the filter and drained through the diverter valve, that being the low point. Perhaps not the best way, but it worked fine. [Of course draining the hydraulics is not really what you are trying to accomplish.] I opted for the series approach to extend the hydraulics, as it was the easiest, not to mention I was a neophyte working on hydraulics. I also ended up replacing the FEL valve and got my Power Beyond that way. Click Here
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Jul 20, 2008 22:59:17 GMT -5
The black bar at the bottom of the picture is the mount for the FEL; note that it is impossible to open this fitting without removing the mount. It looks like the diverter valve is bolted onto the casting. Would removing those bolts...removing the diverter valve let you work on it or get to it? Also looks like in Larry's photos he does not have the same FEL mount in the way like you do? That flat boss on the left side (from rear) looks like a good spot to drill and tap for an "O"ring boss type fitting and put a "T" there. Rob-
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