Major Tractor Woes in Paradise

[Rich Waugh]

After a couple of hours mowing today I was cleaning the tractor and noticed an oil spot beneath the engine. I started the engine and was dismayed to see a small but steady stream of oil pissing from the rear of the oil sump. Definitely not a thing I wanted to see!

I increased the engine RPM and when it was at near full-throttle the leak slowed to less than one drop per minute. 50 drops per minute at 1400 RPM and a stream commenced at about 800-900 RPM. Baffling, at least to me. I peered up under it and it seems to be coming from the area where the bell housing meets the sump, centered over the front drive shaft. I just changed the oil and filter a couple days ago, by the way.

I spoke to Ronald at RanchHand Supply and he thought it might be that one or more of the bolts that hold the bell housing to the sump and block had loosened enough to allow the gasket there to leak, and that he didn't think it was the rear main seal since no oil was peeing from the weep hole in the bell housing itself. I have to say that makes sense to me, but it's pretty daunting to say the least. Either way, I'm looking at having to split the damn tractor, a task for which I'm not well-equipped, either mentally or logistically, but one that I wouldn't know who else to get to do down here.

Before I put myself through all the changes to split this tractor I'm tossing this out to get input from all you guys. Anybody have any other ideas as to the cause of this oil leak? I'm going to try a couple more little diagnostic things before I go any further and I'll certainly entertain any suggestions as to things to check while I'm at it.

If I do have to split the tractor, I'll want to order the necessary repair parts and supplies so I have them on had when they're needed. It can take as much as two weeks for Priority Mail to get stuff to me here, so I kind of need to take my best guess as to what I might need and then order it. That's another area in which I'd like some suggestions from anyone who has maybe been here before or at least somewhere similar - don't want to order way to much but I don't want to come up missing anything that I can't make or fake, either.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Rich

[Turbo]

Man that's a pisser.. to split a tractor just to tighten a bolt or two.. well if you have to then I would change the rear main seal and put new clutch disks in, and a release bearing just for Peace of mind, then I would lock tight on the bolts... let us know how it works out..

Robin

[Rich Waugh]

I will probably replace the rear main seal since I think anytime you pull the seal off the shaft you really should replace it if possible, but I won't replace the clutch discs unless I see some compelling reason to do so. If I was replacing them with hot shit US-made stuff that would be one thing, but just dropping in some OEM discs isn't likely to put me ahead of where I am now. I don't ride the clutch or even ease it out - I was taught long ago to drop the hammer on a tractor clutch, not baby it, and I don't expect to see any wear on them. Throwout bearing is another of those things I won't know about until I see it. If it could economically be replaced with a top quality Timken or Boston or some such, maybe. Again, it doesn't see much time under load the way I operate a tractor.

Loctite? Damn skippy! I'll be depth-miking the bolt holes and measuring the bolts, too - I want full thread engagement as deep as I can get it. Proper torque, too. I do NOT want that tractor to split itself later! Hell, I don't want to split it now, but it's looking like there's no way out of it. Just because some yo-yo at the factory was a bit lazy or used the wrong bolt or some such. After I finish this debacle I'm probably gonna want to go find some poor hapless Chinese guy and smack him just to get even. There ya go, Charlie Chan, pass that along to your cousin in the Jinma factory next time you're in China! :-)

The biggest issue I have with this whole thing is that I don't have a nice clean garage with a level flat floor to work in. With some work I can maybe find a short stretch of semi-level concrete slab outdoors. I don't have a humping big floor jack, either. I'll have to make a heavy-duty dolly with a bottle jack on it to move the rear half away. I also don't have Rob's wife Loretta here to help with moral support and everything else she does so Rob can look slick. (Take that, Rob!) NO, this is going to be just one broken-down old fart half an idea and half as many tools as needed doing a job he doesn't know how to do with no one to help. Your basic, "The Three Stooges Minus Two Split a Tractor."

If I can bring myself to do it I'll try to take some photos along the way. I'm going to need to do that so I know what I've taken off of where and have a hope of getting it back together, and if it all ends up actually working it might benefit some other poor schmuck like me later. Even if only as an example of how you definitely shouldn't do it.

Rich

[roy697]

Is there a chance you can post some pictures of the problem? Being new to the tractor stuff myself I'm not sure what is leaking. ( I know you didn't over fill it, right )

[bradblazer]

Rich - too bad about the tractor. I'm sure you will git 'r fixed though. Can you make a temporary shelter over the pad where you'll be working? Even if it's just a tarp with some poles and guy ropes some shade and shelter from rain might make a big difference.

Best of luck,
Brad

[3RRL]

Dang Rich, you are a mean guy .
Don't forget that I worked on dirt and rock floors in the heat, rain and snow for nearly 4 years before I got my barn built. Shees, cut me a lttle slack man...lol.

No really, I sympathize with your problem oil leak.
And trust me, I KNOW what it's like to have to improvise to get a job done under less than ideal conditions. You will just have to suck it up and go for it. However, before you split that tractor, see if you can post a photo of exactly where that oil is coming from. Ronald is probably correct, but perhaps it could also be one or more of the main sump bolts are loose? That is not the oil pan, but what they call the main sump...that casting which houses the crankshaft.

Ronald would know better, but I think there are bolts for it that go through the oil pan, to the engine block (on each corner)... At least there are on my Kama. The rest of them are on the outside and up of the oil pan. I think them being loose would produce the same type of leak. And Ronald is probably right about the main rear seal being OK, or oil would (for sure) be coming out of your bell housing weep hole. Plus, your clutch would be slipping like crazy.

The bell housing bolts (at least on my Kama) are NOT the bolts that seal off the engine oil from the bell housing. Once you remove the bell housing bolts to expose the clutch pack and flywheel, you need to take the clutch pack and flywheel off. Then, behind them, there is a casting flange which bolts up to the engine block. That would be where the oil leak is. Below are a couple photos of when I split my tractor showing what I'm talking about.

This first one is where the split occurs between the bell housing and that cast flange which seals off the to the engine block. The next two photos show the clutch pack bolted to the flywheel.



Once your remove the clutch pack and flywheel, that flange casting is exposed, as seen in the first photo below. There were many large bolts on my Kama that held the flange onto the engine block. There is also a gasket you will need to buy or make when you take the flange off. You can also see the rear main seal which goes around the crankshaft drive end. In the second photo, the clutch pack, flywheel and that flange are removed. That photo shows where the main sump is bolted up to the engine block.



So as you can see from those photos, if the main sump is not sealed tight against the bottom of the engine block, that could also produce a leak like you describe... Mostly from the sides though. So Ronald is probably right if the leak is coming right in the middle of the engine where it seals to that flange casting. However, it could also be leaking from the sides and dripping down to the middle?

Anyway, I hope you find an easier cure than having to split the tractor.
I'm hoping for your sake, maybe it's one or more of those bolts you can get to without splitting. Maybe even the oil pan itself? Good luck and let us know what you find.
Rob-

[stumppuller]

My Jinma 284 also leaks oil somewhere around the bell housing area, but I don't know if it is engine oil or hydraulic/transmission oil. Is there a dye that can be added to the hydraulic fluid to help narrow things down?

Also, is it possible for oil to leak out if it is overfilled? Where does it leak from?

[3RRL]

Stump,
How bad is your leak?
I don't know about adding dye to the hydraulic oil ... I wouldn't do that personally. But you can check the engine oil to see what color it is and match up the leaking oil. Engine oil will be more "slippery" than hydraulic fluid. Hydraulic fluid when smushed between your finger will sometimes "chatter" a bit, if you know what I mean? Engine oil won't do that, it remains slippery. Plus, (more than likely) it's much darker than hydraulic fluid.

Since the bottom of the bell housing is the lowest point, it's possible for either engine oil or hydraulic fluid to be leaking somewhere above and run down to the bottom and drip form there. So possibilities could be engine oil leaking from the valve cover or even the breather and finding it's way down. I think your power steering box is right above the middle box or bell housing? So if there is a leak there, ... same thing. It's even possible to have an injector leak diesel fluid too and find it's way down? But probably not. You just have to determine what kind of fluid it is.
Rob-

[Rich Waugh]

Thanks for all the positive thoughts, guys!

I drained out a couple of quarts of oil today and started it up - still leaking. Maybe not as profoundly, but definitely leaking significantly. I didn't run it more than about thirty seconds and then shut it down and looked for the oil tracks on the sump/bell housing. Sure enough, the oil is originating at the junction of the sump and forward bell housing half, about dead center. I stuck a .005" feeler gauge up there but couldn't really tell too much with it - it was a bit short to reach up in that narrow area and then try to jam it between the sump/block and the bell housing. In some places it went in a fraction of an inch and then stopped, another place it went in almost an inch and stopped, most places just no go.



I pulled the bolt out of the bottom of the bell housing, and there was one small drop of oil on the end of it, but nothing drained out. No oil, no water, no soy sauce.



So, I guess I'm going to have to split the friggin' tractor. I just picked up a nice blacksmithing commission last night so that has to be a priority, but I'll get the seal and gaskets ordered so I can start on the tractor when I have some time. It never fails that something like this happens when I can least afford the time to mess with it. The biennial North American Blacksmith's Conference is coming up the first week of June and I'm on the setup crew for it so that will knock out a couple of weeks, too. I really want this tractor operational so I can get my new land cleared, dammit! If I knew it wouldn't bust the damn thing in half I'd go ahead and run it, since it doesn't leak hardly at all when the engine is up around 1800rpm or so, but that just doesn't seem smart, somehow.

I really think Rob and Larry should just take a vacation in the Virgin Islands and fix this thing for me. (GRIN)

RIch - I sure hope I didn't fuck up the picture posting thing...

[GuglioLS]

Rich,

Bummer man - mine might possibly be starting to leak a little too, not 100% sure because I've spilled diesel all over creation filling it up over the years and have a little gunk at the bottom center of the bell housing. Tim (tuffy tractor) has the same issue as does Stumppuller.
I say bite the bullet, rip it in half and get-er-done. Might not be as bad as you think? Of course easy for me to say sitting here in my chair.

Man I'd love to come on down and help you out, I really need a vacation in paradise thanks for the invite. If work weren't so nuts for me right now I'd be there in a heart beat. Not planning on having any earth quakes, erupting volcanoes, Tidal waves, Hurricanes, etc any time soon are you? Good luck and have fun at the blacksmith's conference. What do you guys do at one of those anyway? Launch Anvils with black powder or something like that?


Larry

[Rich Waugh]

Larry,

Yeah, I ordered the rear main seal and gaskets today and I'll get the tractor prepped for splitting over the next week or so. My plan is to have the loader and towers off, the tractor positioned on the sort-of-level, sort-of-smooth concrete slab next to my shop and get all the necessary stuff marked for disconnecting and removal. About the time I think the parts should arrive I'll unhook all the various bits and pieces and either get the engine hoist in position or build a quick and dirty gantry to dangle a chain fall from for lifting the cowling. (I talked to Tommy at Affordable today and he gave me some good tips on saving some effort on the splitting.)

Once the parts are actually here, I'll set up my 10x10 pop-up awning cover and split the tractor. I can do that single-handedly, I'm pretty sure. Then pull the clutch and flywheel, replace the flywheel housing gasket, new bolts and lock washers with liberal red Loctite, re-assemble flywheel and clutch assembly, and then get help to put the two halves together again.

As soon as I get it back together, I'll be fabricating and installing braces from the loader towers to the rear axles. There's a better than even chance that some inadvertent jarring of the loader may be the culprit in loosening the bell hosing bolts, so this is some insurance against a repeat.

I'll do my best to document the process as well as I can, and post pictures now that I've sort of figured out how to do that.

The ABANA conference should be a pretty good time. Hell of a lot of work for those of us on the set-up crew, but still fun. There will be demonstrations by various blacksmiths, tool vendors, tailgate selling, partying and general bullshitting. I go to one or two others every year that are really terrific, too. The ones I attend don't get into the anvil shooting thing these days, due to liability concerns and venue regulations, but some of the smaller gatherings still do that - it's a kick the first time you see it, but gets common pretty quick. Not nearly as exciting as going into a burglary in progress and having a couple bad guys start shooting at you. BTDT... :-)

Since I'm the only blacksmith in the Virgin Islands, these conferences are my only real opportunity to interact with other smiths and learn new things. I'll be taking a week or so to visit with one of my brothers up in North Carolina, too.

With the railing commission, the tractor, the new land purchase and the ABANA conference, it's going to be an awful damn busy next few weeks. Who said retirement was boring?

As for natural (or unnatural) disasters, we rarely, if ever, plan those. :-) They do happen anyway, though. Haven't had a real significant hurricane through here since 1995, which suits me just dandy. Don't need no stinkin' earthquakes or volcanoes, either. But you just can't predict what Mother Nature is going to toss your way can you?

Thanks for the encouragement!

Rich

[shotley]

I just noticed a very small drip from mine. How does the stuff get out of the inside if bolts are loose? The gasket around it would have to be bad also or what am I missing? I did tighten some pan bolts which were loose but one is under the drive shaft where I could not get a torgue wrench on it. I plan to wash it off good and check again. I hope the pan bolts are the problem!! I will be reading about your problem with interest. Thanks for the pictures.

[Rich Waugh]

I've pored over all the forums for everything I can find on this issue and it seems that the culprit is usually the bolts that hold the flywheel housing to the engine block. Either they're not properly torqued down at assembly, or they use inferior lock washers or they put flat washers under the lock washers, or the bolts themselves are too soft a steel for the application. That joint is subject to a lot of stress if you use heavy implements or have a FEL that gets hard use. This is one reason that some loader manufacturers supply braces to tie the loader towers to the rear axles.

When the bolts loosen, even marginally, two things happen it seems. The gasket can no longer retain the oil completely and/or the rear main crankshaft seal is damaged when the alignment changes between the block and the transmission shaft/clutch assembly. Therefore, I'll be replacing both the gasket and the seal to be safe.

I'll also be replacing the bolts and lock washers with the higher grade metric bolts. When I do so I'll depth gauge the holes and measure the bolts to ensure that I have as much engagement as is feasible without bottoming out or seizing in the untapped area at the bottom of the holes. I'll also use red Loctite and the proper torque for the fastener size and material. In this case, the torque will probably be limited by the strength of the casting rather than of the high-strength bolts - don't want to strip out the casting threads!

After I reassemble the tractor I'll be adding FEL braces to the rear axles, too. I should have done that at the beginning, obviously.

In reading what I could find about leakage in this area, I never did find an instance where the culprit was loose sump bolts. Apparently they manage to get the sump to seal better even when they don't get all the bolts tight enough. Also, there's no real stress on the sump-to-block connection like there is on the block to flywheel connection - all the forces acting on the tractor seem to be concentrated on the bell housing, while the sump just dangles there, minding its own business. :-)

The bottom line is, a leak there indicates an underlying problem that needs to be addressed before it turn into a major catastrophic failure of the whole tractor.

Rich

[bradblazer]

When you are threading into a casting, if the thread engagement length is longer than a standard nut you may still be able to torque the high-strength bolts. Socket head cap screws are about the highest strength commonly available bolts. Class 12.9.
www.mcmaster.com/#socket-cap-screws/=6ttxj5

You want high strength washers too. Flat washers and loctite might be more secure than lock washers.

[shotley]

Just power washed my 204 this afternoon and ran it up the road a ways then observed it for leaks. After some time I spotted a small leak about 4" up the left side behind the engine. It is a very small leak right now. I took the inspection plate off the side where the clutch is and tried to find any evidence of oil yesterday but found none. I looks like a very tiny gap is by the gasket at the bottom. I have no loader on the front so no excess strain has been put on it with that. It has 275 hrs. on it and the leak just started about 10 days ago. I do have a level cement floor in a shop to work on it and my son-in-law is a truck mechanic. It may be time to talk to him about the problem. It is not a rush order to fix it as I use it mostly for bush hogging and the garden. I have the garden ready so can use my small roto tiller to keep it weeded. It does irritate me that this seems to be a problem with several of the tractors. Thanks for all the advice as I don't pretend to be a Mechanic.