Water from a creek.

[halifax]

Oh Larry
By the way I'm a little south of you down in Halifax county, about 15 miles south west of Charlotte Court house.

Aubrey

[biggkidd]

Jun 10, 2008 20:45:21 GMT -5 Ronmar said:

How big of a pipe? With that number, and the others you have provided, I have some lookup tables that show loss of head. from that you can calculate how much HP you will need to do this for a given GPM.

Ron

Ron

3/4" pipe is what I could afford. This is a piece together system like most things I do. I got a SS shallow well pump from HF. Its 1 hp pump. If I hadn't already taken it up to the country I would check the box for the Power #s. I do remember its rated for 160+ ft. lift and 26ft. suction height with a max flow of 898 GPH. So I figure I will end up with about 5-6 hundred gallons per hour running as far as I am. But thats just a guess. The original idea was to leave the system on when we are there. Running it off of a 1200W inverter and a set of batteries I already have. The idea of running power down from our power shed came later. Once I realized how much more clearing I would need to do just for the solar panels. I also picked up another one of the HF 45W kits for $199.99 while I was there. My deluded thinking was that with 6 6V T105s we could use it all weekend and it could recharge during the week while we are gone. But now it looks like we may be there most of the summer. Nickole wants to move NOW so I need to get my butt in gear. Life is a lot better if Nickole is happy.

Man its good to be back on here I just haven't felt like writing in the last months to tired to do more than read. Sure glad you guys don't seem mad at me.

Larry

[biggkidd]

Jun 10, 2008 21:09:20 GMT -5 halifax said:

Oh Larry
By the way I'm a little south of you down in Halifax county, about 15 miles south west of Charlotte Court house.

Aubrey

Thats cool I think you post some over in Country Plans too? We also have another Jinma owner out in Lunenburg PeterNap. We will have to get together some time sounds like we are doing a lot of the same things. I'll PM you with my phone # or you can send me yours if you want I have free weekends and nights after 9 for long distance. Where do you call home now we are in Richmond. We looked in Halifax before we found our little piece of heaven. Would love to have you come see it. You could teach me some things or maybe get some ideas what not to do. ;D

Larry

[biggkidd]

Aubrey,

I just have a few thoughts for you and your creek situation. First do you have any pics of the creek where you want to draw water from? A video would be even better.

Heres the point I may be able to help. First we pumped water from 230' 40+ ft. high with a 12V pump from HF (Harbor Freight) that cost $29.99 and used 1/2" sprinkler pipe $11 per 100' from HD (home Depot). You can set up the same way using a 55 gal. plastic barrel in the middle as a transfer station. Check out golf shops for their used cart batteries CHEEP or free. HF has panels 45w kits for $199. I would have gone this route if I hadn't had to go so far and even farther down the road when we build and for gardening. If your like me and your strapped for cash you can just use 2 more 12V or 4 more 6V batteries and charge them up once a week by moving them back to your solar set up at the end of the weekend or week. I will say they DO Not have the suction lift they claim but have more positive Head lift than they claim. We have to set the pump within 1 or 1.5 ft. of the water surface before they will draw.

Second you should Goggle Spiral Pumps if you have decent flow on your creek. Does the creek border your land like ours or run through it? If I had time and energy I would build a spiral pump its the way to go. But with our creek on the property line I am not sure we would get away with it. That and we need water NOW so its quicker this way for us. Even better if your on a good creek you can get all the power you'll ever need from it more reliably and cheaper than any other way. If its a real good creek you can even have Luxuries like AC, which we ran off our battery bank this past weekend. Burned 10 gal of gas recharging the bank over the 3 day weekend. Ran the charger almost non stop. But hey it was over 100 with a bit of humidity.

Larry
PS good Luck with your adventures.

[Ronmar]

Jun 10, 2008 21:21:09 GMT -5 biggkidd said:

Jun 10, 2008 20:45:21 GMT -5 Ronmar said:

How big of a pipe? With that number, and the others you have provided, I have some lookup tables that show loss of head. from that you can calculate how much HP you will need to do this for a given GPM.

Ron

Ron

3/4" pipe is what I could afford. This is a piece together system like most things I do. I got a SS shallow well pump from HF. Its 1 hp pump. If I hadn't already taken it up to the country I would check the box for the Power #s. I do remember its rated for 160+ ft. lift and 26ft. suction height with a max flow of 898 GPH. So I figure I will end up with about 5-6 hundred gallons per hour running as far as I am. But thats just a guess. The original idea was to leave the system on when we are there. Running it off of a 1200W inverter and a set of batteries I already have. The idea of running power down from our power shed came later. Once I realized how much more clearing I would need to do just for the solar panels. I also picked up another one of the HF 45W kits for $199.99 while I was there. My deluded thinking was that with 6 6V T105s we could use it all weekend and it could recharge during the week while we are gone. But now it looks like we may be there most of the summer. Nickole wants to move NOW so I need to get my butt in gear. Life is a lot better if Nickole is happy.

Man its good to be back on here I just haven't felt like writing in the last months to tired to do more than read. Sure glad you guys don't seem mad at me.

Larry

Larry
Slower delivery rates = longer runtimes and more power consumed. You may have some problems pushing even 500 GPH thru that pipe. There are tables for head loss(or increase) due to friction of the fluid flowing in the pipe. This information is based on the type of pipe, the size and the projected flow rate/velocity. The table I am looking at for PVC says that 3/4" pipe at 500GPH or 8.33 GPM will, due to friction in the pipe, add approximatly 27' of apparent head per hundred feet of pipe. 27 X 7(hundred) is an apparent 189' of height(head) in addition to the 70' of actual elevation you must pump the water up(259' total). It will presurize the pipe all the way to the camp, because statically it is only pushing against 70'. But as soon as you open a valve at your camp, the end delivered flow rate will drop to a point where the apparent head(actual + friction head) that the pump is seeing is at or below the pumps maximum head rateing. IF the demand is greater than the delivery pressure at the camp will drop off drastically, but all the while that pump is working at full capacity.

At 5GPM(300 GPH), the table shows 10.3' of head per 100' of pipe, or an additional 72' to your 70' actual head. This is closer to that 166' head figure you mentioned, so it's delivery will probably be closer to this 300GPH figure.

This is mainly a factor of pipe diameter, and the friction number drops dramatically with pipe size increase. As an example at 5GPM, 1" pipe only has a head increase of 2.5' per hundred feet of pipe length. That is 1/5 the ammount of loss for only a 25% pipe increase. 1" pipe would only add 17.5' of apparent head to your 70' of actual head, so the end delivered GPM will go up till that maximum figure is reached. At 10GPM(600GPH) 1" pipe would have a total head of only 134.4', so I would estimate that you could deliver maybe 650+ gallons per hour by increasing your pipe size 1/4".

That pump is going to consume the same ammount of power per minute of run time regardless of what pipe you hook it to. The less it runs the better.

Good Luck

[biggkidd]

Ron,

Thanks again sounds like i better go exchange that pipe and fittings I got for 1". Even though the pipe cost a little over twice the price. I think you may have just saved me another big headache. Great I can't find the receipt just looked. I had no idea there was that much loss. Boy you saved my tail again.

Larry

[quikduk]

Larry:

Check the price of 1" versus 1.25" or 1.5" as once you get to the 1" size, the additional $ required for those next two sizes (pipe AND fittings) is nominal at best. That is why when I installed my irrigation piping, I went with 1.25" since it ended up cheaper overall with the fittings and valves and increased my volume exponentially. Step down for pressure increase (moderate) at the distribution end (i.e. 1.25" to 1" to 3/4" hose bib).

HD. will give you a store credit and you just use that on the new purchase.

Also, better to keep the pump(s) running to a minimum to extend the lifespan and if in a creek, use a good particulate filter on the suction side and clean/change it often. A stainless steel screen works the best. You can get them from irrigation supply houses...or restaurant/kitchen supply houses and it will last a long time.

Good luck.

[biggkidd]

Ron, Ken & Guys,

Just got back from HD to late to check about the 1.25 or 1.5 pipe Ken suggested. But off the top of my head I didn't see any pipe there that big. As it was I cleaned them out of the 1" poly rated for 160 PSI. That was a good tip about the screen on the pick up side in the creek. I was planning to use a small pool filter at the pick up. But I think I will check into one of the irrigation screens first. I think I have a week or two before we finish the trench. Unless Nickole gets a big burst of energy and hand digs that section while I sit back and run the hoe. Its amazing the cost difference between the 3/4 and 1" it cost us $160 for the 3/4" and $400 for the 1". Next week I have to take the 3/4" back.

Well let me go see if I can get the late corn planted. So we can take the tiller tractor up with us this weekend. We are trying to move a few things every time we go up. That should help when it comes time to make the big move. Not to mention it helps to clean up around here. Speaking of which I took a load of scrap to the recyclers yesterday. Paid me almost $500 to clean up my yard. COOL ...... Well first I have to do a little work then out to the garden.

Later
Larry

[bradblazer]

I recently bought some 1" 100psi coil pipe at HD for just over $20/100'.

You probably know this but you need a foot valve (check valve) at the intake end to get the rated suction lift. HD sells plastic ones with a coarse strainer for about $10.
The HF pump has a port for priming plus it helps to shake the intake up and down to fill it and achieve prime.

Brad

[biggkidd]

Hey Brad,

The HD here doesn't carry the 100 psi 1" pipe only the 160 psi. I am going to stop back and get a foot valve I looked at them this morning & almost got one, should have. Do you think the brass & stainless one is better or worth the extra $$$ over the plastic? Thanks for the tips. I do have a way to prime it and I doubt we will even come near half the suction side lift. Still haven't placed the pump so it could end up anywhere. But farther up hill may be better for the pump location. I guess I am going to have to build a pump house also. I better get some 100W bulbs before they quit selling them. I'll use that as a small heat source during cold weather. Might not need that much so much depends on how it all turns out. Might end up building the pump house under ground then I wouldn't have to worry about it freezing. For right now I just need to get water. I'll worry about the housing of it later.

Thank you guys for all the help.
Larry

[halifax]

Larry,
I have a couple of pics of the creek, miniature compared to yours. I am lucky in that it runs through the property, have about 2 acres on the other side of it. Without rain, it goes down quite a bit, can't float your boat on it, just a model boat. During a good rain, it will swell up to 3 feet deep and 6-7 feet wide. It not ideal for anything really cept to look at. Mainly because its starts as a spring next to me, the best thing it has going for it, no farm, houses, etc. upstream from me, and it tested good for chemicals and bacteria. I'm still going to try to make use of it, somehow. I'll have to take a trip to HF and look around the store instead of looking on the web.
I'm still toying with the idea of a windmill. I keep talking myself out of it because I'm not sure if I have the wind necessary. I figure though if I only get some use from it, its that much more I can charge without spending money on gas, etc.
I looked at this site many times, I think I can recite some of it.
www.otherpower.com/turbineplans.html

Aubrey

[linus69]

I keep looking at this model myself, it has a lot of nice features, but I too am not sure I have enough steady wind to make it practical.

www.campinggeardepot.com/store-products-SS37-Skystream-37-Land-Wind-Generator_40634991.html

www.potomacwindenergy.com/

Paul

[biggkidd]

Well,

We forgot the camera this weekend. Really didn't get much done. Did do about another 100' with the hoe. So now its on to digging by hand. Still have more to do with the back hoe but that has to run through areas we use to drive the ATVs and small tractor down to the creek so I want to leave it until last.

It looks like we are going to go ahead and set up another small power station there. Which will be good for other things I am sure as the years roll by. Went back to home depot and got 1" pipe and brought the 3/4" pipe back home to take back this week. It looks like using the 3/4" pipe would have cost us almost 1/2 of the flow that the 1" should allow. I got the compass out and we will have to remove some rather large trees to get enough light in there. But thats ok as we can use the wood for either lumber (after we get a mill) or fire wood. Its not going to be as bad as I first thought. The creek runs out of the North to the South. So if I clear from the creek back east and south to the small creek that should give us enough sun in there for our panels. While not having to open up a huge area. We did start digging out the area where the pump house is going to go. Once thats clear we will start digging up the hill side to where the tractor can get to with the hoe.

Thanks guys for all the tips and help.
Larry

[halifax]

Went over to the property this weekend to measure the creek etc. Pulled out the measuring tape and laser level, a slow process but a little more accurate than the hand held GPS.

Good news, its only 55 feet up to the cabin not the 90 I thought. Bad news, its 525 feet in distance not the 350 I thought. I have 180 feet of usable creek on the property and 8 feet 8 inches of downhill flow. Also bad news, since its been dry lately, the creek was down to a trickle, enough flow to say its going and thats it. So I think the whole project of using the creek water might be a bust.

If I do anything, I might run a closed loop system, just use the creek water for cooling only. At least I won't have to worry about any distance up from the creek like an open system would. I also won't have to worry about power down to the creek, I could power it at the cabin. I just need to get a small 12v pump now that I do not have to worry about the large head ( maybe I should reword that)

Aubrey

[psj12]

Have you considered a Ram Pump. They use the stream flow to power the pump. Cost nothing to operate don't need electricity. Here is a link to an educational site. www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm. If you do a google search there is information on homeade ones from PVC. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egzyn_Mgr_8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEJFADMT5M8&feature=related