quikduk
CTW Life Member
Dog House
Posts: 552
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Post by quikduk on Dec 17, 2008 11:33:23 GMT -5
Rob, can you "procure" a Japanese or USA spec metric sealed throw out bearing in place of the Chinese one? What about making 3rrl versions of the replacement "fingers" out of some tool steel...or are they supposed to be sacrificial...or is that because it was you using the tractor...as opposed to us...?  |
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 17, 2008 11:36:04 GMT -5
Rob, For the hours you have and the amount of work you've done, the old clutch disk look to be in decent shape with quite a bit of life left in it, however without seeing a new one to compare it to it's hard to judge how much wear it has really sustained. That clutch pack is massive, I bet it's heavy too. The fingers must be pretty soft compared to the throw out bearing for them to wear out like that. I wonder if it be worth getting the new ones heat treated? I think the trick getting it back together is going to be getting the two clutch disc's perfectly centered to the pilot bearing, then getting the main shaft and PTO shaft splines to all line up at the same time as you side the two halves back together, not only that you got to deal with the front drive shaft splines at the same time. I suppose you could engage the PTO lever then turn the output shaft until the splines line up, maybe somehow do the same thing with the transmission so that shaft mates with the splines as well? It's going to be tricky. They always come apart much easier than they go back together. It doesn't look like your going to need very many parts for the repair so that's not bad. Is the Throw out bearing a sealed bearing? or can it be user lubricated? I see a grease fitting at the back of the input shaft to the transmission what's that one for? I would think there is gear oil on the other side of that bearing and the grease fitting is redundant? Larry All good observations Larry. I don't know how thick the new clutch pads are either. I can tell you though, that the PTO clutch still has swirl marks from the original surface. My guess is that it is still as close (withing a couple thousands) of the new thickness. If the main clutch is the same thickness, then mine is only ten thousands (.005" per side) thinner. I am calling Chip today to order new clutches so I'll measure them and let you know. I'll keep these since if my hunch is right, they are re-usable too. The throw out bearing is sealed on the OD and working face. You may be right about that grease fitting you see in there being redundant. It goes to behind the TOB seat support, which has a bearing behind where it's bolted. I'm sure there's gear oil that lubes it because there's an oil seal there too. When I first asked about the grease fitting, I was told it went to the throw out bearing and was warned not to over grease it. Now I see there is nothing lubricating the throw out bearing, nor is there any lube to the TOB seat which slides back and forth on the support. Also, the fork fingers that push the TOB forward have no lube. That may not be so important, but the sliding seat and TOB are. I think therein lies the problem. The sliding seat was very sticky and TOB froze up. It's a design that needs improvement. I know you don't want any grease or oil getting in there, but right now there is zero lube going to them. The sealed bearing (if packed correctly) should be good. I hope Chip will pack the new bearing for me. What would happen if I added a grease fitting to the sliding seat? Anybody see any problem with that? I could point the Zerk fitting so I can hit it from the same opening as the OEM fitting. The fingers are soft (cast) but really, if the TOB was free, that should be OK. Perhaps work hardening over use and time. Yes they will wear but not nearly as much as when the TOB turned into a grinding wheel. What would be cool if they had roller bearings on the finger tips. Last, your questions and replies are always so good and detailed! Dang!! I am worried exactly what you said, about getting everything lined up so the tractor slides together again. Besides what you pointed out (the alignment issues) there are all those external hard hydraulic lines that need coaxing to get them back from one side to the other. I disconnected them on one side only in hopes of saving work and effort, but that may be a problem upon re-assembly. I may take everything off and deal only with the clutch shaft and 4wd line up(s). If that is too much, I'll install the 4wd shaft after, using Brad's approach of loosening the front axle. Rob- |
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 17, 2008 11:50:35 GMT -5
Rob, can you "procure" a Japanese or USA spec metric sealed throw out bearing in place of the Chinese one? What about making 3rrl versions of the replacement "fingers" out of some tool steel...or are they supposed to be sacrificial...or is that because it was you using the tractor...as opposed to us...? Ok wise guy, you and Larry are lucky you live so far away now! Being old, I forget who insulted me after about 20 seconds. ;D I remember in the old days, if some guy looked me back in the eye for longer than normal, I would cross the street to confront him. Anybody remember those days? Now, with my glasses on, I realize they are just wondering who the old geek is, hahaha. OK, It's probably me using my tractor as opposed to you guys. I'll admit I'm a but rough on my equipment. It was a feeble attempt to chop me though. I saw those pictures of your little dinky tractor all covered with snow. Are you going to park it under the Christmas tree as an ornament? ;D I talked to Chip already and will order the new clutches, fingers and TOB from him this morning. I thought about getting a TOB but he has the right one and it saves me time and effort since I'm up in 3R again. Rob- |
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Post by baknblack on Dec 17, 2008 11:58:51 GMT -5
My TOB on my 354 has a pin hole for a grease needle in the outer race. I give it a couple squirts a year.
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 17, 2008 22:05:11 GMT -5
My TOB on my 354 has a pin hole for a grease needle in the outer race. I give it a couple squirts a year. I ordered my stuff from Chip this morning. Parts should be here before Christmas. He viewed the photos and advised me to buy only the 3 fingers, the TOB and the main clutch plate. He said those PTO clutches rarely go out and that mine was like new. Just need to rough it up a little. The main clutch was almost new also with very little wear from the .370" thickness new. So I will keep that one for a replacement down the road. My pilot bearing is good too and didn't need to be replaced. All I did today was wire brush all the rust off the parts and clean them up. I used acetone to remove any grease and oil. Tomorrow I'll do the same inside the bell housing. Chip advised against using any grease or oil on the sliding TOB seat and support since the dust and residue from clutch wear and dirt might act like grinding dust if it clings to those parts. So I'll assemble everything dry except the splined shaft ends. Chip discussed the throw out bearing with me and I mentioned I had never lubed mine. He said some have the pin hole in them and some don't. Mine did not have that pin hole in it. He was very good with his advice and saved me a lot of money. He could've easily pushed me to purchase the entire clutch pack and what ever else but he didn't. He is quite a good man. I've gotten a lot of good advice from you other guys too and I sure appreciate it. Oh, I when I went to Napa, they looked up the TOB for me. They came up with a match except the OD which is about .080" smaller than the OEM one, but that shouldn't matter. The OD does nothing. Check it out, it's a N3078 and should work. I'll try it on Friday to see if it's a good press fit to the Seat. I'm also going to wire up my big lathe to make a clutch alignment tool instead of buying one. Rob- |
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Post by bradblazer on Dec 17, 2008 23:16:24 GMT -5
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Post by affordable on Dec 18, 2008 6:52:15 GMT -5
Rob,when you do get all your parts back on and you start sliding the 2-halfs back together it usualy goes good until the last couple of inchs.The clutch tool will get the discs aligned but not the splines in the PTO disc.We engage the PTO and put a partial PTO shaft on the back of the tractor so we can turn the PTO shaft to align the disc as we are going back together.Don't try to force it or put longer bolts in to suck up that last couple of inchs as you will bent the center part of the PTO disc.We have had (several customers bring us a (now concaved) PTO disc thinking it's defective.I have had tractors slide right back together the first time,and have had many more that took 4-5 stabs to get it to go back together.With your knowledge I know you will take your time and make sure it's right.Hopefully you will be up and running again real soon,Chip is a great guy and I would not ever doubt his honesty,because you are right he could have sold you alot more parts.Let us know if we can help you.Are you going to adjust the clutch pack first.?When you reinstall the TOB make sure it's in the normal operating position,put a straight edge on the bell housing and measure the distance to the TOB,deduct the clearance you want(on Jinma we adjust appox.1/8" from the TOB to the fingers). Then measure off the back of the engine where the bell housing bolts and get your measurement to the fingers with the clearance,adjust all 3-fingers the same and you should be pre-adjusted.Hope this information helps you Tommy Affordable Tractor Sales www.affordabletractorsalesco.com |
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 18, 2008 11:09:00 GMT -5
Rob,when you do get all your parts back on and you start sliding the 2-halfs back together it usualy goes good until the last couple of inchs.The clutch tool will get the discs aligned but not the splines in the PTO disc.We engage the PTO and put a partial PTO shaft on the back of the tractor so we can turn the PTO shaft to align the disc as we are going back together.Don't try to force it or put longer bolts in to suck up that last couple of inchs as you will bent the center part of the PTO disc.We have had (several customers bring us a (now concaved) PTO disc thinking it's defective.I have had tractors slide right back together the first time,and have had many more that took 4-5 stabs to get it to go back together.With your knowledge I know you will take your time and make sure it's right.Hopefully you will be up and running again real soon,Chip is a great guy and I would not ever doubt his honesty,because you are right he could have sold you alot more parts.Let us know if we can help you.Are you going to adjust the clutch pack first.?When you reinstall the TOB make sure it's in the normal operating position,put a straight edge on the bell housing and measure the distance to the TOB,deduct the clearance you want(on Jinma we adjust appox.1/8" from the TOB to the fingers). Then measure off the back of the engine where the bell housing bolts and get your measurement to the fingers with the clearance,adjust all 3-fingers the same and you should be pre-adjusted.Hope this information helps you Tommy Affordable Tractor Sales www.affordabletractorsalesco.comThank you Tommy, I will the adjust the clutch pack on the bench. That part about measuring from the bell housing to the throw out bearing and then from the top of the fingers from the back of the engine is excellent. That means, I wouldn't have to do ANY adjustments through the inspection window once the tractor is back together again. That was one of my questions and now you've solved it for me!!  I will be very careful in the re-alignment of the tractor. I was planning to rig up a come-along to inch the tractor together. I'll be rolling the back half to the front by myself unless Loretta helps me. What you told me about using the PTO shaft to help align the shaft is also what Chip told me. I really like that all you guys, yourself, Chip and Ronald back each other up and have respect for each other. You guys are a class act. Let me say this too... When I first considered buying a tractor, buying Chinese did scare me a little at first. Then Loretta found several tractor sites about Chinese tractors, how to assemble crates, repairs etc. In reading I saw that you and the other dealers often made posts to help and that might have been the one single element that gave me enough confidence to buy Chinese. Sometimes you guys are overlooked in our daily BS on the boards, but you guys are the secrete cohesion for us all. When we are down and out, who do we turn to? Thank you, Rob- |
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 18, 2008 11:17:55 GMT -5
Brad, Here are the dimensions of the N3078 TOB right out of the Napa book. .866 thick x 2.559 ID x 4.016 OD. My question about the OD not touching the fingers at all, is that correct? If os, and the ID will press on, that TOB should work, right? I presume the finger adjustment takes up the slack if there is a slight thickness difference. I will mic the OD of the bearing seat where it presses inside the TOB to see what it really is. Rob- |
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Post by affordable on Dec 18, 2008 11:47:30 GMT -5
Rob, if you can get your wife to help you that will be the best, we get someone on each rear tire and just inch it together that way you can control each side seperatly then.I also have found that Ronald & Chip have been great friends and business associates, we all try to work together for the customers sake.I know that we are not always the cheapest on Tractors, parts, ect. but we all 3- run a business with overhead, service shop, employees,ect.The guys selling out of there garages we cannot compete with, but there not much help after the sale either.I have found most guys on the boards do support us and we appreciate that. Hope you have a Merry Christmas, and get your tractor back up and running soon Tommy Affordable Tractor Sales Co. www.affordabletractorsalesco.com |
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psj12
CTW Member
KAMA 554
Posts: 93
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Post by psj12 on Dec 18, 2008 11:48:23 GMT -5
I recently did a clutch on a large green tractor for a farmer neighbor who lets me hunt his property. I used two come alongs to pull it back together. I placed one from either rear axle to the front axle. This allowed me to do a little steering to allign the shaft. I also turned a wood dowel on a drill press (My lathe is in OK) for a clutch allignment tool. Everything whent together perfectly.
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Post by bradblazer on Dec 18, 2008 13:35:05 GMT -5
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 18, 2008 20:25:22 GMT -5
Thanks Brad, I figured it would work. Like I said, I can't see 1mm making any difference. That can be adjusted I'm sure, when setting the finger clearance. I'm picking one up at my local Napa tomorrow. They ordered it for me. I will still keep the new OEM one that Chip is sending out, so I'll at least have a spare. I'll compare them when I have both. Chip's OEM bearing won't be here until Dec 24th, and I will be in Rancho, so the soonest I'll respond regarding that will be on the 27th. BTW, I used a 2-3" mic and the OD of the bearing seat and it is 2.560". the ID on the Napa bearing (65mm) translates to 2.559", so that will be a perfect .001" press fit. Now I'm still thinking about whether of not to add a grease nipple to the sliding seat. Some guys think it's OK to have grease there and some don't. Now would be the time to do it of course. The other consideration is adding a way to add grease to the TOB itself. Since my OEM one was not grease-able, I wonder if the Napa one is? Heck, I wonder if the OEM one Chip is sending will be or not since he said some are and some aren't.  Rob- |
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3RRL
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Huge Kama
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 18, 2008 21:13:33 GMT -5
Today I cleaned the rust off every part. Also roughed up both clutch discs and flat stoned all the pressure plates with a 220 grit YLS stone. It was a lot of tedious work but worth it to me. One of the photos shows how dirty and rusty the bolts were for comparison. All the plates were that way before I wire brushed them. Rob-   |
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3RRL
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Post by 3RRL on Dec 18, 2008 21:24:49 GMT -5
It looks like some of these Chinese tractors may be suffering from the same clutch related problem? I wonder how many others have noticed excessive finger wear or TOB seize up? Clutch wear itself, at least on mine was minimal. Had the TOB not frozen, the fingers wouldn't have worn down either. I might've had a good working clutch for 5,000 hours or so, who knows? With that in mind, I'm still wondering about being able to lube the TOB itself and also the sliding TOB Seat. Some say no lube and some say yes, lube it. I know you don't want any lube to get into the clutch, so I'm torn between the two. Inspecting my sliding TOB seat, I saw there is a cavity ring between the two machined ID's. When I took it off, it had some residual grease in there. Looks like the cavity is there on purpose, perhaps to house grease? I know it's more work to machine that undercut in there, so I'm thinking it's got to be on purpose.   I mentioned before I'd like to add a grease fitting right to that sliding seat. One I can get to from the same hole in the housing. If I'm going to do that, obviously now is the time. I'm curious, what do others do there? I'd like to hear the pros and cons. I already got Chip's opinion and I value that, but I'd like to hear yours. Not just Chinese tractors, but all brands? Are your TOB Seat and TOB itself lubed? Rob- |
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