Major Tractor Woes in Paradise

[Rich Waugh]

Sounds like the same area where mine is leaking. Pain in the ass, for sure. While you don't have a loader on the tractor, the bush hog is a fairly heavy and long implement and has a lot of leverage on the tractor. I know that mine whangs around pretty solidly when I'm transporting it in the raised position and that may be putting some shock on the block-to-bell housing joint. Just a thought.

I got the loader off yesterday, which was far more of an adventure than I would have liked, I can tell you. It did NOT come off easily at all, in fact I was concerned that it was going to fall over, break, tear up the tractor, etc. Damn near did, too. When I installed it I used my engine hoist to get it in position and I finally resorted to using the hoist to get it off safely. Should have just started out with it. While it is off I may consider making some supports for it that actually are engineered to fit the real-world geometry of that thing. The Chinese factory ones sure as hell aren't.

When the parts arrive form Affordable I'll see about getting some help to split the thing. May not happen for a while though, since I have that blacksmithing conference coming up before long and I don't want to start a project that I can' t finish before I leave. The timing is going to get dicey, I'm afraid. That's life.

On a more amusing note, I attempted to "join" Joe's little group of enthusiasts yesterday so I could download pictures on his site. Today I got an email telling me I was refused. Shit, I didn't even get to join and I was kicked out! That paranoiac must have his little spies everywhere, huh? Anybody have his email address so I can tell him what a weasel I think he is? (grin)

I'll post updates on the tractor repairs as they happen.

Rich

[shotley]

richwaugh, I have had some heavy stuff on the back and my lift used to be faster than it should be for a while before I adjusted it. My bush hog is a 5' model and the tractor is rated for a 4' one. I also use a massive old John Deere plow. I have larger than recommended sand bucket that I haul wood out of tight spots or move dirt. Never thought about that overloading anything. I assumed the lift would give up if the load was too heavy. All the stuff except the mower came with an old Ford 8N that I had. Never thought about straining the frame.

[Rich Waugh]

Shottley,

I didn't think about it either, until I was pretty much forced to. :-)

I drive over rough nasty dirt tracks with the bush hog raised and the loader up a bit as well. I know that more than once I've winced when I heard all the banging and clattering going on that way, so I'm not surprised that the tractor took some jolts it could have done without.

Now, I'm not saying that this stuff SHOULD break a tractor. It shouldn't, in my opinion. A Corvette, sure. But a tractor is, fundamentally, an off-road working vehicle and should withstand more than a passenger car. I would guess that the factory didn't do the best job of assembling the critical joint and that maybe the seal was compromised a bit at assembly, too. That happens to the best of them. I just wish it had happened to them, and not to me!

I'll be checking it very carefully as I disassemble it to see where the root of the issue seems to be. If I discover anything that can be modified to make it better I'll surely bring it up here before trying it out on the tractor. There are guys here like Rob, Larry and Brad, just to name a few, who are far and away more knowledgeable about these things than I am and I intend to take advantage of their knowledge.

Still waiting on the parts to arrive - should be any day now.

Rich

[stumppuller]

Well, I'm joining the club. My 284 has only 165 hours on it, but is leaking dark oil from the joint between the engine & the bell housing. Also, I can work a 0.048" shim between the two castings at the bottom, but not at the top. It is strange that it leaks considerable oil while just sitting still, motor off. I would expect the rear main seal to be the dam that holds the oil back, not the mating of the castings. Usually the seal sits above the oil level in the pan, so how does it continue to leak even with the engine off?

[Rich Waugh]

In looking at the drawings in my engine book, it appears that there is a "ledge" of sorts where the block meets the bell housing. That may collect oil while the engine is running and then allow it to leak out once shut off.

Mine doesn't leak when shut down, pees a stream at idle, drops to 50 drips a minute at 1400 rpm and barely drips once or twice a minute at 2000 rpm. However, if I let it idle a half minute or so and then shut it down, it continues to drip out a half a cup of oil after shutdown.

I may know more after I've split it. Not sure when that is going to be since the parts haven't yet arrived and I may not get a chance before I go off-island for 3 weeks later this month. I will keep detailed photos and post my findings as they happen, however.

Rich

[3RRL]

I know you have that pending conference to go to and you must be chomping at the bit to get those parts. Otherwise you could get on with the tractor split while waiting for them. Last time I split my tractor I did it before I ordered parts in case there was something else that needed attention or replacement. Even so, I still had to order more stuff.

You guys with those leaks should really consider adding FEL braces to the rear end like I did on Loretta's tractor. Her 284 has (about) 250hrs on it now and no leak in that spot. And she's been using the loader a lot to dig dirt for our lawn projects. So there's plenty of strain there. The braces are really not that hard to make and attach. I believe they are even more heavy duty than those that came with the Koyker loader on my Kama. I posted photos of them in Loretta's thread, but here are a couple to refresh your memory. Rich, while the tractor is split would be an opportune time to make and install them.
Rob-

[Rich Waugh]

Boy, your post is really timely, Rob! The seal and gasket order arrived today, but the gaskets are trashed. Not well packed at all, unfortunately. I called Affordable and they're going to re-ship them, but there goes another couple of weeks, probably. Drat!

Yep, the loader braces are on the menu for sure. I'll be pretty much copying what you did on Loretta's tractor, maybe beefing them up a hair for the greater weight of the 304. The loader towers will not go back on until the braces are complete, that's for sure.

Thanks for re-posting the pics. I won't even have to look for them, now. :-)

Seems like everything I own is crapping out the last couple of weeks. My digital projector just puked the bulb ($250) when I was using it to blow up patterns for a big railing job. That sucks. More time lost. I'll have to do a workaround on that one, since I don't have time to wait for a new bulb to come. Have to break out the old overhead projector, I guess. Sigh.

Rich

[shotley]

3RRL, The project looks good. But my 204 does not have a loader at all. It makes me believe the thing was put together with poor bolts or some other malfunction. I plan to taking mine apart in the near future. I am looking foreward to others posting what they find.

[roy697]

Am I seeing it right. The braces only go from the rear axle to the loader tower? (I don't have a loader but would like to, without all the problems of coarse.)

[Turbo]

Rich you might consider adding supports to the front frame as well.
I made this up last year and everything is still nice and tight, and the loader has a nice solid feel to it.

This is before It was painted.

here painted and outlined with white to see it.

you may notice I drill and safety wired the bolts into the housing.

Turbo

[bradblazer]

Is there a reason you don't use the existing bracket to attach to the sub frame?

[Rich Waugh]

Brad,

I'm actually planning to whack those mounting points off the loader towers since I won't be getting a frame mount backhoe. Also, it seems to me that attaching the rear axle braces there would possibly add loading to the bell housing rather than minimize it. The towers mount to the bell housing much higher than the hoe frame mounts and having the loader exerting force on the towers up high and the the rear axle braces way down low seems to me it would be focusing the stresses sort of in the middle, i.e. where the thing bolts to the bell housing.

Now, I'm NOT a physicist, engineer, mechanic or anything else that might be actually qualified to make such sweeping judgments, so take my guess with somewhere around a pound of salt. I just like the idea of putting the rear braces right onto the tube instead of way below it. Oh - I already have some ground clearance issues with those things hanging down there.

I'll be interested to hear what the more knowledgeable people here think of my "logic". (grin)

Rich

Rich

[roy697]

Would you guys post a couple pictures that would cover end to end of the tractor. I don't own a loader or BH but when the time comes I want to be as ready as I can. It would seem to me that a frame from the front to the rear would give the most strength. (Man this info is great)

[stumppuller]

I like Rob's stiffening braces, but don't see how they could resolve the problem of the case(s) separation. If you envision a heavy load in the bucket, say 800 lbs, the load is trying to pivot around the front axle, lifting the rear wheels off the ground (this is also true for digging & pushing with the bucket). This puts the top case screws in tension and the bottom screws in compression - just the opposite of what I'm seeing on my tractor with 0.048" gap at the bottom of the cases and ~ nothing at the top. Using the engine & gear cases on tractors for the sole structure of the tractor has been pretty much standard since the beginning of time. My guess is that a) screws were insufficiently torqued or, b) locking means such as Loctite or lock washers were not used, or c) poor quality steel fasteners are used, or d) all of the above.

Also, if this were truely a design flaw pretty much all of the tractors out there would have this same problem, but it seems that only a small minority have it, which points to inconsistant quality control more than anything.

In the coming weeks I intend to split the tractor & report what I find. In the meantime I am getting my new garage & house sheet rocked. Priorities, you know.

Bruce

[3RRL]

May 9, 2010 15:14:38 GMT -5 bradblazer said:

Is there a reason you don't use the existing bracket to attach to the sub frame?

Hi Brad, yes there is a reason.
I am saving those brackets in case I want to make a backhoe sub-frame for Loretta's tractor. I figure I can use the Nardi on her tractor someday.