Top & Tilt Preparation Questions

[tuffytractor]

Although many of these discussions have taken place some time ago, I thought it would be useful to post them as many will have similar questions when they begin their upgrades.

As Larry has become the go to guy on hydraulics, I was originally going to just address these questions to him in a personal message. But as my questions just kept getting broader and broader, I thought it better to start a new thread, perhaps others would benefit from the answers as well.

Since many of you have become hydraulic wiz kids, I thought I could avail myself of the collective wisdom. Hope you haven't answered this somewhere else and I just haven't found it.

I know I've seen Larry reference them before as purchases through eBay, but I'll be danged if I can find the link. Would you mind telling me again where you got your hydraulic side links.

Trying to think through the way you guys are recommending to quickduk (Ken) to run his return lines for his rear hydraulics for top and tilt. If one uses the FEL valve power beyond then you can run back to the hard return line on the sump, otherwise you have to create an in and out (series) running back to the Hydraulic pump connections to the FEL?

What is the purpose of having quick connects on the rear hydraulic top links or side links, won't they stay on permanently, once placed?

What other devices should I think about providing hydraulic power to besides the top and side links? I thought I could use the power beyond for any additional hydraulic needs, is that being short sighted? Perhaps, super duty gear driven scarifiers, although I don't think I could accomplish anything quite that sophisticated. Are there any alternatives that are hydraulic driven scarifiers, that us mere mortals might attempt?

Is there any disadvantage to having hydraulic side and top links when using the 3PH mounted back hoe. I thought I might inadvertently create stresses by activating the hydraulics when the hoe was mounted, perhaps breaking something.

The only occasions, that I could think of, that check valves on the cylinders might come in handy, would be in a situation like the hoe mounted, no need to worry about bleed off. Other than that, I'm inclined to adjust the valve to accommodate any bleed off in other situations. (Perhaps my lack of experience is showing)

Your recommendation of control valves for Top & Tilt
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006101118040397&catname=&qty=1&item=9-6703-f

This was Ken's choice of valves
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110218491607&item=9SV-1-X&catname=hydraulic

Maybe one could add a float detente to the valves that Doug prefers, but the one that you reference includes that already on the first valve. I'm assuming you would use that on the hydraulic top link to feather in while using the drag box? The benefit to Doug's preference is that if one knows what else there will be need for control valves, just include that in the original purchase or add a few later. Without the need for power beyond. Is that right?

Top Link recommendation
cgi.ebay.com/Hydraulic-Top-Link-Cylinder-Cat-I-2-Bore-20-28_W0QQitemZ300035862825QQihZ020QQcategoryZ41484QQss %20PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks for the help and guidance guys.

[tuffytractor]

Quickduk

Tim: I just PM'ed Rob on this and I will re post here for all since I am trying to do the same project you are. Larry, Bill, Joe, if you have any input, I would appreciate it as always.

My message to Rob:

What do you think about these options for my 3-spool valve?

www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110909554153&item=9-7175&catname=hyd raulic
or...
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110909554153&item=9-6703-F&catname=h ydraulic
or...
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110909554153&item=9-4503&catname=hyd raulic

According to Keno, my system has a 2500 psi pump rated at 7 gpm and with the pressure set at 2000 psi. The Husco looks pretty beefy but I know you used the Prince. Do the values and preset pressures on the Husco make it less desirable or because they are higher than my pressure and pump, does this not become an issue? It saves me almost $40 which would help towards this top link.

www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110909554153&item=9-7259-8&catname=h ydraulic

The Eaton valve is supposedly very high quality but it doesn't appear to have float which I was thinking would be good for my top link or does my position control on my 3-point already give me this?

Rob's response:

I like the float feature on the first link, the Husco looks good except it has a fixed relief valve? Don't know if that means anything anyway since your pump is set lower. And it has SAE ports instead of NPT. I hope that is correct because some guys refer to NPT by SAE size. But if it is SAE, it will be a much cleaner, easier leak proof install. It is big.

The second link Prince valve is what I got, I think and it is pretty big too and has NPT ports and adjustable pressure relief. I'm not a fan of NPT if I could get SAE or JIC instead. Wish I new more before I bought mine.

The last link Eaton valve is what I would get if it were me except no float like #2 has no float. But is compact and has adjustable pressure relief and SAE ports.

I did like you (except not as much research) and chose one that met my restrictions but I wanted power beyond as a feature on it. The choice of valves is yours regarding size, functions, mountability and durability vs money with only the following restrictions:

-Try to match the valve so it is within range of your 7 gals/min. and also around 2500psi but even so, one with a higher rating will still work.
-Check physical size
-Check port connections ... many are only NPT but some may be JIC? That is the best connection you can have IMO.
-The pump is set lower than most valve relief pressure. This will not be a problem. If you feel good about it, you could adjust the relief pressure up on your pump to match the loader etc. for a little more power, (if you have a gage to check it by) but be careful. Mine is set at 2350psi and only 5.6 gals/min. my pump is rated at 2500psi too.
-You can also adjust the relief on any valve lower or higher too they should all have an adjustment for that (except link #1)

About float for the top link.
Some have found it to be a desirable feature. Myself I do not have float for the top link. The only time I would use float for the top link is when I'm rotary cutting with the brush hog. But my brush hog (Howse) has a slot in the top link attachment so the pin in the top link cylinder can move back and forth...giving me that float. IMO floating top link would be good for that.

I can't imagine using that feature for the box blade allowing it to tilt forward or backwards. It could just dig in like crazy if you hit a rock or bump? I use the position control and draft for my box blade work. Not the top link float. I keep that rigid and even have DPOCV on it to keep it from leaking down. Same with my backhoe top link which is rigid and also the PHD. But Larry has that feature so ask him how he likes it and what he uses it for? In my case, I don't have a need for it so I would go with #3 Eaton. If it was available with float I would do that, since float is an added feature whether you use frequently or not, but it would be there.

Whaddya all think?

[tuffytractor]

Quickduk

I am partial to the Husco, maybe the appearance, possibly the SAE ports and it has first position float and the price is right. The Eaton is also a favorite due to it's compact size and appearance. It does NOT have float but perhaps I really do not need that. For some reason, I thought I did for the top link since I will be brush mowing soon but maybe not. My brush mower has a pivoting "U" shaped mount for the top link and perhaps that is for the up/down movement.

Since I don't have 3-point draft control but just position, I guess I wouldn't need float since the 3-point does that a little now doesn't it (Tim, Larry)?

[tuffytractor]

Rob's Response:

Tim,
Larry would be the right guy to answer some of your questions pertaining hydraulic routing from fel to your new valve and also about stuff specific to your tractor.

Here is what I can help you with IMO.
What is the purpose of having quick connects on the rear hydraulic top links or side links, won't they stay on permanently, once placed?
In my case, I need quick disconnects for the top link because my backhoe has its own rigid top link. So I take mine off for that use. I leave it all for all other implements I have (so far). I believe your backhoe uses the top link as a connection so you could eliminate the QD's for that AND the side links. My side links are plumbed straight into another valve that operates them....no QD's there.

What other devices should I think about providing hydraulic power to besides the top and side links? I thought I could use the power beyond for any additional hydraulic needs, is that being short sighted?
There are many other devices that require hydraulics, which is where your rear QD's would come in. For example, a hydraulic PHD, maybe a hydraulic thumb for the backhoe. A hydraulic boxblade, and a roto tiller, etc. I am thinking of using mine for a log splitter without valves on the log splitter, using the tractor's rear QD's and valve instead. There are tree spades, post pullers etc that can be hydraulic too. Lots of stuff.

Perhaps, super duty gear driven scarifiers, although I don't think I could accomplish anything quite that sophisticated. Are there any alternatives that are hydraulic driven scarifiers, that us mere mortals might attempt?
Yes, there are store bought boxblades that have pivoting rippers...hydraulically operated. And manual ones you could easily convert to hydraulic. Plus Brad came up with a great idea to make a stock boxblade hydraulic without the gear mechanism I used. Very, very clever fellow he is.

Is there any disadvantage to having hydraulic side and top links when using the 3PH mounted back hoe. I thought I might inadvertently create stresses by activating the hydraulics when the hoe was mounted, perhaps breaking something.
NO, not at all. Just don't activate them when you are strapped up! They will make your life 100x easier. Set the hydraulic side links like you would your turnbuckle ones then mount your implement like normal. Then, like when mounting the backhoe, you can hydraulically "cinch" it up a little (if you want and you have the guts) for a super tight connection. Just watch it there, use common sense, please.

The only occasions, that I could think of, that check valves on the cylinders might come in handy, would be in a situation like the hoe mounted, no need to worry about bleed off. Other than that, I'm inclined to adjust the valve to accommodate any bleed off in other situations. (Perhaps my lack of experience is showing)
The check valves are totally an option. I put them on mine and I like them. They act like when I locked my turnbuckles. But, they are an added expense and added pain to plumb. So I'll never know if my cylinders would have leaked down or not. As far as the top link, the manner in which I use the top link the DPOCV help keep that connection rigid, same as when I locked my turnbuckle down. But then you loose the float function of the top link, because the check valves won't allow float. There are several threads I've read where people like that feature so maybe Larry or someone who uses that feature can comment on usage.

Disclaimer:
These answers are IMO ONLY ... having been gathered from my brief tractor legend experience and how I do things.
Also, sorry for the long post but you were obviously looking for some answers or your post would not have been that long either.

Rob-

[tuffytractor]

Larry's Response

Tim,

Rob has done an outstanding job answering all the questions & concerns - I am not the only "go to" guy for hydraulics.

Here are a few things I can add:

IMHO the check valves will only stop a cylinder from leaking down through a leaking valve - it can't keep a cylinder from moving if oil leaks past the internal cylinder o-ring. Rob, is that right? The check valves also offer good protection from changing position against intermittent high shock loads - i.e. slamming into stuff (again only if the valve has blow by). I don't have them so I don't know how nice they may be. Rob installed them so he does not know what it would be like without them. We both seem to be happy. That's the dilemma on check valves or not. I do know that I am not having to adjust my valves because the cylinder drifted a few thousandths .

Float on the toplink - I use may different TPH implements and so-far the only thing float has come in really handy for is Mowing with a bush hog - no gage wheels. I am really glad I have it for that purpose. However I had previously mowed for 25 years without one. So it's not 100 % required, but I do get more even height results on rolling terrain with it. - Like that matters on the fields I mow .

Also your question on the toplink removal - If you use a PHD the toplink must come off. And like Rob mentioned when the Hoe goes on, the top link comes off. I just set mine to the side, it does not have QD's.

Where I got my sidelinks - Baileynet.com, Top link from eBay. You can get the hydraulic cylinders from surplus center or anywhere else that has the length you need. The 1" dia clevis pin holes will have to be modified to match the pin dia of your tractor.

Routing of hoses - from Power beyond or in series, draw it out on paper to help you figure it out, or use Paint & Post it here, lets take a look at it. I have a FAX at my home office if needed. I would imagine since you have already done a significant mod by putting on that high tech hydraulic setup for the FEL you will figure this out pretty well.

If any of us missed anything, or what we said is as clear as mud help us help you and give us another chance.

Thanks for asking!

Larry

[tuffytractor]

Rob & Ken & Larry,

Thanks for all the updates guys. I was mis-thinking about float for the top link, somehow I was thinking about draft control float as a top link float function, me thinks I was a bit confused. So perhaps float in the top link (valve) is not critical.

I think I'm partial to the Prince valve, primarily because I have one already and If I need a rebuild kit, I'll be able to use the spares o rings on the other valve if they are ever needed. I also like the spacing for the valve handles as I anticipate my hand resting on the valves as I look back wards. The handle spacing doesn't look as comfy to me on the Eaton valve as it does on the Prince. It doesn't really look like cost is substantially different between the alternatives.

Why did you give up on this one?
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110218491607&item=9SV-1-X&catname=hydraulic
For me its a little intimidating to make sure you get all the right detentes and floats that you may want, but if you figure that out... I wonder what the cost comparison would be. Easy way to get further control valves for future Hydraulic additions.

Sure would like to see what Brad has come up with as far as the inventive Hydraulic scarifiers, would you mind including the link? If you have any other links for drag boxes that include that option, I would be interested in taking a look. When I've tried to search for those options on the web, I haven't found any.

Larry just posted that the Hydraulic top link should come off when mounting the hoe, I'm not sure why? Sorry if the answer to this question is self evident, I just don't get it yet.

Thanks for the help guys.

[tuffytractor]

Larry's Response

Tim,

Is your hoe a TPH mount or a pure subframe?

Many Hoe's have their own rigid toplink attached directly to the hoe, thats why Rob & I say the top link comes off.

The valve www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006110218491607&item=9SV-1-X&catname=hydraulic
Looks like a good way to go as well, it can be configured any way you want. The only thing I see wrong is that the web site will not let you mix & match more than 1 spool. I think you will have to call them live to get it configured correctly and at the right price.

Larry

[tuffytractor]

Rob's Response

Larry and Tim,
You asked:
IMHO the check valves will only stop a cylinder from leaking down through a leaking valve - it can't keep a cylinder from moving if oil leaks past the internal cylinder o-ring. Rob, is that right?
That is correct. If the cylinder itself has faulty seals it may experience internal leakage, however this is rarely the case especially on new cylinders. That kind of leakage is usually a result of long time use with perhaps dirty hydraulic oil causing seal failure over time.
The reasons I used them (DPOCV) and hard plumbed ON the cylinder is in case I blow a hose, the implement won't come crashing down. You would think most fels would have that feature bu they don't so it may be of no concern, but nevertheless, that was one of my reasons. The other reason is to keep the cylinder position where I have set it, to avoid leak down and slow change of implement position (unnoticed). This is all based on, of course, that the cylinders are good. Most leak down occurs between connections (minor leaks) and valves and hoses where some air can be present(?) in the system and compress. Mostly, from what I have read, it is of no consequence. So either way you choose to go (with or without) should provide good results.

About your backhoe toplink, I did say I thought yours used the toplink and did not have a solid bar like ours. That's why I said you could hard plumb without QD's and just put it to the side if you ever needed to. You might want to consider putting 2 QD clamps on the ROPS to hold it when not in use? Like clamps that hold a fire extinguisher or like mine. They come in handy anyway for other stuff.

[tuffytractor]

Ken's Response
Ok guys, I got (or will get) the Prince 3-spool valve with the float and power beyond sleeve, two Bailey's side links and a Surplus Center top link and have a few questions. BTW, I may have asked these before so please, humour me.

My dealer said that the ZL-30 FEL valve's "out" port that currently goes to the 3-point valve is not really a "power out" but more of a semi-powered/semi-gravity fed out. They indicated that I could go as follows:

1-out from FEL "out" to in at Prince valve

2-out from Prince valve to original "out to 3-point valve"

3-do not need to use the power beyond "assuming that I can "blow through" the Prince valve (I assume this means it is open centered?).

OAN, the Surplus Center tech said I needed a power beyond sleeve and that I would have to feel the FEL in out of the Power beyond meaning.

1-out from pump to in on Prince valve

2-out of Prince PB sleeve to ZL-30 valve

3-out of Prince "out" to tank (return to tank)

4-existing out from ZL-30 to 3-point stays the same.

The tech indicated if it wasn't done this way, the Prince valve would "leak like a sieve".

So what gives and why? I certainly do NOT want to dead head the pump or ruin any of the hydraulics. It can't posibly be this complicated or problematic can it? The first way is the way I think that Rob and Larry indicated to do it, as well as my dealer...but Rob and Larry, you guys have Koyker FELs with American valves and not ZL-30s so I am a little concerned.

Sorry to belabor this issue. I guess if there was more consistency of hardware, it would be easier.

As a final point, I don't care which way as long as it works right and I don't mess up my FEL, pump, etc.

Thanks.

Ken

[tuffytractor]

Larry's Response
Hey Ken sounds like your getting closer.

3-do not need to use the power beyond "assuming that I can "blow through" the Prince valve (I assume this means it is open centered?).

It will be open center IF YOU ORDER an open center. And open center is what you want.

So what gives and why?

Option 1 = the easiest, least costly, offers less protection though.
Option 2 = Longer hose run and have to add one more (return to tank) hose. However it is (IMHO) the best option because the prince valve is the first valve in the circuit from the pump. The prince valve you order most likely has over pressure relief built into it.

Are you going to install a pressure gage and or a pressure relief valve? - Not to complicate matters worse - Just asking.

Larry

[tuffytractor]

Ken's Response

Larry:

The valve I ordered is open center with float on the first spool and it comes with an adjustable built-in over pressure relief valve set (by Prince) at 2000psi. Rob indicated I may want to set it and my ZL-30 a little higher but I do not know if I will do that yet. I also ordered the power beyond sleeve and I will most likely go the second route per your humble suggestion.

I havent ordered the gauge yet but I will and it will be a 3000psi liquid filled version, as well as getting the pressure relief valve that you specified to Bill for use directly after the pump HP out. If I am making a line to go back to the sump from the Prince "out" port, I may as well "T" into it and add one from the pump relief valve too. It is just another hose and they are fairlt inexpensive.

What size should I use? The in and out and PB sleeve ports are all 3/4" NPT while the work ports are all 1/2" NPT.

Ken

[tuffytractor]

Larry's Repsonse

What size should I use? The in and out and PB sleeve ports are all 3/4" NPT while the work ports are all 1/2" NPT.

You can easily use 1/2" hose through the entire circuit (all the In's & outs).

All the work ports could be 3/8" but you might as well use 1/2" so you use fewer adapters. And have the same size fittings throughout the entire system.

[tuffytractor]

I have made my choice, as far as valves, I'm going with a Stacked Valve setup by Prince.

www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006111312085595&item=9SV-5-Y&catname=hyd

Having heard Rob's conviction that I will only find more and more uses for hydraulic set up in the back, I decided to plan for the future by getting a five spool valve. I'll probably use the first three for Top link and side link hydraulics. The fourth for activation of scarifiers on the box blade, one extra for whatever comes along.

One of the benefits of using the stacked valves, is that if I want to relocate two of the valves else where, I can buy two ends and move them to a better location. That way even if I don't know exactly where or what I'll be using them for, I'll have the ability to adjust down the road.

I forgot to mention I planned to get 1 Section D (Float Spool $78.50) and 4 Section B (Spring Centered $56) valve sections. It comes with Inlet and Outlet sections that have dual ports for either top or side plumbing, Outlet section comes with power beyond. Each section has load checks.

It has all the same benefits of the mono block design, with perhaps a dose of flexibility, for someone such as myself, that doesn't quite know the best application of use as yet.

[tuffytractor]

Rob's Response

Ken,
I would go #2 that is...
From pump to the "IN" on your new Prince valve. I would use all ½" line and a "T" to a ¼" NPT for the gage. The ½" line with ½" NPT ends can be adapted up to ¾" NPT or down to ¼" or 3/8" easily.

I would put the pressure relief valve (if you think you need it)right there, before you hit the new Prince valve, and the dial pressure gage right after it, also before the Prince valve.... Or on the power beyond line going out of the Prince valve BEFORE the fel valve. But in any case, somewhere so you can view it easily.

Then, install the power beyond sleeve into your new Prince valve. From that power beyond sleeve, go to the "IN" on your loader valve. (Include dial pressure gage if you prefer it here.) I think the power beyond sleeve is also ¾" NPT exit so you'll need a step down fitting there to fit your hose. From the "Exit" on the Prince valve, run a return to sump line to that "T" you have.

Then, the routing from the loader valve back to the 3pt all remains the same. That should complete your new circuit perfectly.

Tim, on the top link float, it only controls the backward and forward tilting of your implement and float on the top link would provide tilting there and for tilt/float applications there? Your 3pt position control and draft are for raising and lowering an implement. As I understand it, the draft feature is designed to keep an implement at the desired height or depth as set by the position control. Like when using a plow, if the plow starts digging in too deep, the draft ...as it senses more resistance ... would "pull" it up again to the same position. At least that's how I think it works.
Here is where Brad made a concept sketch of raising the scarifieres...very clever and doable idea.
www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/89748-hydraulic-box-blade-teeth.html

Larry, I often wondered why fel hydraulic cylinders don't have check valves for safety reasons, but I think the "float" feature would be compromised? Anyway, that's why I like the DPOCV to be hard plumbed on the cylinder and not in the valve. Of course, most hose routings are out of harms way, but you NEVER know what can snag them and bust them. I've had it happen to the pressure line going from my rear remote valve to the fel and lost ALL hydraulics. The fel smashed to the ground and I was unable to steer the tractor out of the woods. If it had the check valves on it it would have stayed in the air and I could have driven it out of there. I had my backhoe on so the 3pt was OK. I had to leave my tractor in the woods for 2 weeks until I got a new hose and do the repair there! (almost same place where I broke off the steering tie rod)
Rob-

[tuffytractor]

Just to let you know, the overall weight for the valves (5 spool) alone (no hoses or fluids included) is 42 lbs. Length 8 5/8", Width 11 5/8", Depth 4 3/4". That would include the two ends and 5 spool valves. Tapped bolt holes in the bottom of the two ends, if I remember correctly, for mounting. Handles included.

If like me, you will have unused spools the part for the #8 SAE plugs, which are not included are: #9-6408-8 and are $1.10 apiece from Surplus Center.
www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006111311191180&catname=&qty=1&item=9-6408-8
I'm thinking I'll just cap off the unused spools and take off the handles awaiting the need to plumb them in. Mounted up and ready to go, when the muse strikes for their use.